MIT Atheist Tried to Disprove God. The Math Didn’t Cooperate. | Douglass Ell | 058

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I started calculating the odds
that a particular amino acid, a

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protein, but ever have risen by
chance in the life of the

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universe.
The odds are off the chart.

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A Yale physicist calculated the
odds of life arising by chances,

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one in a number with 100 billion
zeros, not only 100 billion.

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One in 100 billion zeros.
Welcome to When you Look where

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ordinary people share their
extraordinary experiences and

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you get to decide was it
coincidence or God?

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Doug.
Welcome to When You Look.

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Genuinely excited to have you on
the show man.

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Oh, so thrilled to be here now.
Congrats on this wonderful show.

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Delighted to be here.
Thanks, man.

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We are delighted to have you.
You've got an incredibly

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interesting story and so much
rich conversation that I'm

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confident we're going to have.
So before we jump into all of

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that, Doug, tell us a little bit
about yourself.

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Well, I don't know if you have
nerds who listen to your

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podcast, but I'm a classic nerd.
I went to MIT, graduated early,

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double majored in physics math.
In seven semesters, I took 15

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math courses and got straight
ASII.

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And I did that mostly because I
was lazy.

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I mean, it just came to me.
Wow.

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Ended up studied theoretical
math for a while, ended up going

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to law school so I could make a
little bit of money.

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Did well there.
Had it.

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I retired recently, but for 30
years I was the lead lawyer on

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all the NFL pension, disability
and savings plans.

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Ran a team of lawyers.
So had a, you know, very blessed

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life.
Praise, praise be to Jesus, but

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basically still a nerd.
And I'm really excited about

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nerdy scientific things.
And you know, and I'm looking

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forward to sharing with you on
that.

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Yeah, awesome.
Well, for everybody listening

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and watching, it's it's very
clear from Doug and what he

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share that he is brighter than
the average bulb.

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So let's all listen in because
he's got some really, really

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neat stuff to share with us from
a scientific standpoint.

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But before even that, let's
understand why you took a deep

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dive on all of this.
So kind of give us a sense for

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what life is like for you and
then how things begin to unfold.

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What when I I was raised in a
Christian background and but

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when I was in high school, I
read that life started in a

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dirty pond.
Miller Yuri experiment if you

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want a word on it, and which is
nonsense, but that's another

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story.
And and and it I've looking

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back.
I mean, I feel like I was

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intellectually bullied with
nonsense and one of my goals in

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life now is to keep others from
being intellectually bullied

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into atheism.
But I was I thought it was

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stupid to believe in God.
I thought science had solved

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everything.
I went to again MIT and consider

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myself an atheist until I hit 30
and I had a son.

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My wife wanted to take him to
church to get baptized.

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So, you know, being a dedicated
atheist, I thought about that

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and I said, yes, dear, I don't
know if you're married, but you

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know, you pick your battles
carefully, right?

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Indeed, I did say you're smarter
and brighter than the average

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bear, so that makes sense.
Maybe, you know, sprinkle a

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little holy water on the kid.
Knock yourself out.

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And we were there and I found
something and I looked around

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the church, Nick and these
people had something that I

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didn't have.
And they had a piece.

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They had a serenity and now and
I was, you know, full of myself,

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making some money, had a good
job, whatever.

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And, and I thought, you know,
maybe they're doing better than

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I am in a lot of real ways.
There's maybe there's a lot more

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than this money, you know,
inside the Beltway, you know,

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rat trap that we all get that
some of us get on.

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And I felt something.
And so I started to, but I told

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myself you can't be a Christian,
a believer, you know, because

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you're a technical guy, unless
you can find scientific

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evidence, right?
And, and is that what a lot of

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people say?
Well, you know, what about the

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scientific evidence?
Well, when you look at it, and I

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did look at, I started reading
books on cosmology.

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I taught myself molecular
biology, the basics, you know,

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and we'll get into a little bit
of that because the basics are

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so profound.
And, and I used to, I lived on

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Martha's Vineyard at the time,
was commuting to my law firm in

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Washington, DC So a lot of
planes, a lot of time.

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And I remember I was on one
small commuter plane and I

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started calculating the odds
that a particular human,

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particular amino acid sequence,
a protein could ever have been

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arisen by chance in the life of
the universe.

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We can get into that nerdy stuff
later, but the basic answer is

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no way, OK, There's not enough
time in in a trillion universes,

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no matter how long you think
billions of years, you think the

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universe old is to create some
of these amino acids, the odds

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are off the chart.
I have a friend who's was head

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of physics at MIT at that time.
And we would talk about God.

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And I said, you know, somebody
ought to write a book about this

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'cause what I'm finding out is
contrary to the popular

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perception, he said maybe that
could be you.

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And I thought, you know, hey,
I'm a busy attorney.

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I am a guy, but it'd be 10
years.

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I wrote my first book.
It's called Counting to God,

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where I count through different
areas of science, each of which

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I think points fantastically
towards a creator intelligent

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designer, and I hope it came out
in 2014.

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I'd like I gave a lecture at MIT
to open it up up to launch it

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and which is on YouTube.
But in Doug LMIT it'll come up.

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And since that my my minister
said you got to put in pictures.

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I mean it's too technical.
So I put in, I put in a simpler

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version, which we've now, so I
was just telling you, Mick,

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we've turned into a graphic
novel and, and I wrote an actual

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novel just for the fun of it,
which was really a hoot.

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But there's so much out there.
And the more I look, the humbler

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I am and and the richer my life
becomes.

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Yeah.
Wow.

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Doug, thank you for giving us
that overview because I feel

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like to use your plane scenario,
we hit that at 30,000 feet.

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I know we're going to take some
deeper dive, but let's rewind a

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tiny bit because you agree to go
to church and as you mentioned,

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you know, let the holy water be
sprinkled upon your child.

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But you obviously noticed
something and you talked about

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it, how the folks that were
there, they had peace, which is

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something that you didn't
necessarily have.

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But let's explore that a little
bit more.

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Give us some more color into why
you decided to examine things

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then as opposed to maybe just as
you said, you're busy, guy.

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I'm just going to push this out
of my life.

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I'm going to move right along
with things and my thinking as

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they are.
Yeah, it wasn't.

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I think you're right.
It wasn't just that I saw that

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they had peace.
I mean, something changed inside

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me.
I think sitting there, it was

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just a desire that I've got to
figure this out.

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I've always been the kind of
person who tries to figure

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things out and who kind of
teaches himself things.

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I have a hard time paying
attention.

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One of their professors are
lecturing or whatever, you know,

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I'm at.
I like to try to figure things

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out and but I felt something and
I looking back, I think it was a

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gift from God.
You know, I think faith is a

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gift.
We can get lost in our own heads

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where you know, and, and and
separated from God.

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But God gave me the gift of
saying stop, take a look.

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And I wanted to figure it out at
that stage it.

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So you know, why I was blessed
with that?

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I don't know, but I was.
Yeah.

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Well, before we jump into some
more of the details that you

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uncovered, I want to stay
rewound here and give us a

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little bit of insight into why.
And you weren't you were

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alluding to some of this, OK,
but give us some insight into

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why growing up in a Christian
household, right.

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And we can bracket that in
quotes however you want, but

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that's kind of your phraseology.
Why that to the I'm kind of a

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solid atheist through my 20s and
into my 30s before I have this,

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you know, encounter, if you
will, or moment in church.

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Well, I just felt it was Dom to
be religious in a sense.

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It was intellectually bullied
and seemed like Christianity

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didn't explain anything.
I mean, if we came from pond

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scum, well, you know, so much
for, you know, and then we can

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get into this nonsense called
The Big Bang Theory, you know,

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but you, a lot of people are
deluded into thinking that

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science has explained why
anything exists.

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Science has no clue why anything
exists.

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The Big Bang Theory's got a lot
of problems and it's all its

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variations has a ton of
problems, but nobody, no

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scientist could ever tell you
what caused, what lit the spark

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that created the universe.
And I mean, the discovery that

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the universe was created is one
of the most fundamental

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scientific discoveries ever.
And there's no explanation in

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the secular world.
It's it's all just mind

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boggling.
And yeah.

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I think what you're describing
there is is a scenario where

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Christianity, as you described
it, wasn't answering any of the

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questions that you were
essentially delving into

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scientifically throughout that
period of schooling, it sounds

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like.
Yeah, it's, I mean, Christianity

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didn't seem to have the answers.
Science seemed to have all the

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answers.
You know, it seemed like the

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smart money was on atheism.
You hear phrases like religion

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is the opiate of the masses, you
know, stuff like that.

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You know, we we're all deluded.
Christians are deluded or just

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pretending.
And it had an effect on me, you

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know, because I guess I didn't
want to appear stupid.

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And I kind of I assumed that
supposedly smart people who were

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atheists knew what they were
talking about.

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Assumed incorrectly, but I did.
Yeah, Doug, I just want to pause

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here for a second and just
commend you for the fact that

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you were very honest right
there.

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So thank you for being
transparent about that.

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For a man of great intellect, I
really appreciate the fact that

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you can now look back on all of
this and say this is what I

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thought.
I.

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Realized that there are other
ways and better ways of thinking

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about all of this stuff.
So thank you for being

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transparent about that stuff.
So let's get into it.

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You now begin your own
investigation.

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Where did you start?
I mean, you again, you were

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talking about this when we're
roughly 30,000 feet in the air.

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Tell us a little bit more about
that in terms of what it where

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did you start and then what did
you find?

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Molecular biology is is studying
a molecules that are used by

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life in biology and the basic
way life life is more

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complicated than anything humans
can do, but the basic way it

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works is not hard to understand.
We run on digital code.

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People use the phrase oh, DNA,
it's in my DNA, whatever.

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Or you know.
Yeah.

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I've got bad DNA.
I've got good DNA, good genes,

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bad genes.
You know, genes is just a

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section of DNA, but they don't
really think about the

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implications of that.
We have in almost all of our 30

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trillion cells in our body,
about 3.2 billion with AB

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letters of digital code.
Now, a digital code is just a

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way of transferring informations
by having separate units, OK?

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Commuter computers will use
zeros and ones in life.

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There are four groups of atoms
that make up the digital code,

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and how the atoms are structured
in the DNA molecule is a

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unbelievable piece of
engineering.

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But before you get into that,
you got to start.

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How do you get digital code?
Let's go back to the word gene.

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So a gene is a section of DNA
that codes for protein.

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So a protein is a snap together
amino acids.

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When I've lectured on this, I
get these children's connecting

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blocks where you snap them in
and there are 20 blocks and the

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the machines read the digital
code 3 letters, three groups of

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atoms at a time.
Pick out the right block, snap

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it on, and keep going until they
reach the code that tells them

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to stop.
So how do you get digital code

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by chance?
How did life start?

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There is no secular explanation.
I could talk about that for for

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00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,520
an hour.
Harvard University in 2006

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00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,320
announced this grand Origin of
life project.

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You know, so they were going to
explain how you can get life by

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00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,560
chance.
How do you get the digital code?

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00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,280
And you have to start with all
the digital code.

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00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,080
You have to start with the
machines to copy the code.

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00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,040
You have to start with the
machines to read the code.

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00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,320
And you have to start with the
code and you have to start with

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00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,320
the code in the exact right
order so the machines can make

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00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,240
copies of themselves.
By the way, no machine made by

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00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,960
man can copy itself from raw
materials.

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00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:53,040
So, but all life can't yell.
Physicists calculated the odds

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00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,360
of life arising by chances.
One in a number with 100 billion

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00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:03,720
zeros, not only 100 billion one
and 100 billion zeros.

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00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:13,040
OK, but Harvard tried and
crashed and burned, but they

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00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,360
won't give up.
I attended a talk at the Harvard

240
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,160
Faculty Club a couple years ago
and that this was the debate on

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00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,680
the origin of life and they
brought in some guy from

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00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,880
Scotland to argue that.
But we just need to figure out

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00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,520
how things self organize
themselves.

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00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,240
I'm like, wait a minute, Nobody
has a clue how that happens.

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00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,600
But when you look at look at the
way it works, it's digital

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00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:44,640
coding and it is coding beyond
our comprehension.

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00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:50,960
So there was a project called
the Encode Project, which was to

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00:16:50,960 --> 00:17:00,320
decipher human DNA, and they
published their results in 2000,

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00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,840
I think 11.
They found that the code is

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00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,680
basically fully functional,
although they don't know what we

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00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,760
don't know what a lot of it is.
They found the code has at least

252
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,319
two layers of information.
How do you have a code within a

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00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:17,800
code by chance?
They found that we human beings

254
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:24,200
have, in this code at least, we
have about 4 million switches to

255
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,680
dirt, turn different systems on
and off.

256
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,760
This isn't some, this isn't some
group of, you know,

257
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,200
fundamentalist quacks.
This this is 400 plus top

258
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:41,760
scientists worldwide who
released 30 major papers

259
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,240
simultaneously on all this
research.

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00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,080
Yeah, and would it be fair to
say that that group of

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00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:56,920
scientists probably skews more
towards the secular side of

262
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,320
things?
And the.

263
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:03,280
Creation side of things and that
their attempt here is to be able

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00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:09,640
to understand, document and
justify essentially how all of

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00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,920
this works.
Is that their assessment?

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00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,520
Yeah.
I mean, I think like a lot of

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00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,600
not all, but a lot of top
academics, you know, they were

268
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,800
very, they were sexually
focused.

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00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,600
They got a lot of criticism
about that it's fully functional

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00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,520
because there was been this myth
that DNA has a lot of junk.

271
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,920
I don't know if you read the
term junk DNA and they came back

272
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,640
and basically said, look, sorry,
you don't like our like it, but

273
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,520
this is what, what it is.
OK.

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00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,960
And it's there's so much like
this.

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00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:52,680
I mean, when you, when you look
at the fantastic complexity in

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00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:58,960
life, it's it's beyond human
comprehension.

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00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:04,200
So the most incredible
technology in the universe is

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00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,480
inside us and most and
particularly is the human brain.

279
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:20,480
The human brain, sure we have we
have as many neurons as

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00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,800
somewhere a hundred 200 billion.
So like number of stars in the

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00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:30,800
Galaxy roughly they have they,
they communicate with lightens

282
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:39,560
and electricity.
There are as many connections

283
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,840
between them as stars in 1000
galaxies.

284
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,520
And there was a group of
scientists tried to compare the

285
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,440
energy efficiency of the human
brain.

286
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,960
They said, well, it's 1000 times
more efficient.

287
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,920
But if we built a similar
system, that other system would

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00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,880
take 30,000 times longer to come
up with answers.

289
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,320
So.
You know, and we have the number

290
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,840
of processing units we have in
our brain, our memory storage.

291
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,360
It's sort of comparable to the
entire worldwide Internet.

292
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,040
The new research is that our
brains are reorganizing

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00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:23,320
themselves, the data is getting
shifted, and there's an

294
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,200
incredible amount of actual work
going on while we sleep in our

295
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,360
brains.
So what then, Doug, for you in

296
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:38,840
particular, personally got you
over that hump from atheism to

297
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,560
man, this has to be
intelligently designed.

298
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,120
Mathematically, there's no
denying, I think, that it's

299
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:50,600
intelligently designed.
So let's talk now about Darwin

300
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,800
and his, you know, theory of
evolution.

301
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,200
And when you look at that, it's
nonsense.

302
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,920
And a lot of top, I think all
the top biologists in the world

303
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,360
know that Darwin's theory
doesn't work.

304
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,440
But a lot of them are still
secular and they think, well,

305
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,320
we're going to find some way to
fix it.

306
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,920
People ask me how anybody could
believe Darwin these days.

307
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,320
Well, they think they're going
to find some way to fix it

308
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,600
without God.
But Darwin's theory, as you

309
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:27,080
know, is that there are these
accidental changes in organisms

310
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,360
and nature select.
So nature's the designer here

311
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,280
instead of God and Darwin,
nature selects the best features

312
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,440
and that's how you get human
beings from pond scum.

313
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,520
So the when Darwin proposed his
theory, nobody knew about DNA.

314
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,760
But now the, you know, the, that
the new modern theory is that

315
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:54,120
DNA has mutates the code.
Yeah, mutations, changes in the

316
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,400
code, nature selects the good
changes.

317
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,160
So let's look at that.
So imagine every Organism has a

318
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,440
book of DNA code.
So for human beings, it's like

319
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,520
1000 huge thick volumes, 3.2
billion letters.

320
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:18,320
And then every generation,
because of slight copying errors

321
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:24,280
or whatever chemicals, whatever,
there's somewhere around 100

322
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,840
errors in the code, OK.
This is theory or this is

323
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,760
proven?
This is this is fact.

324
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,160
And there's dispute about the
number, but it's at least 100.

325
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,520
Some would tell you 300.
So think of the books and you

326
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,120
sprinkle the typos in it.
Is the book going to get better

327
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:48,000
generation after generation?
Typos after typos after typos?

328
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,920
There is detailed computer
software that will do this in a

329
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,720
biological setting.
It's called Mendels Accountant

330
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:02,280
if anybody wants to look it up.
So Mick, in all the simulations,

331
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:11,240
all everything goes downhill.
OK, so evolution just me.

332
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,120
Evolve means change.
Evolution means change over

333
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:17,400
time.
But the the thing to remember

334
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,840
is, according to all the
mathematical simulations, it's

335
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:27,520
down over time, not up.
You can't select out the errors,

336
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,320
much less build new technology.
There's no way to build

337
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,920
technology by chance.
So even when I, when I, when you

338
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:43,440
realize that Darwin's theory
doesn't work and there's no

339
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,200
other, I would say logical
explanation.

340
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,240
And, and then there's, and I'm
not getting into a lot of areas

341
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,400
here.
I mean that I found that to be

342
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,480
like, wow, OK, that's a wild
thing for me.

343
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,720
As I mentioned, there's no
explanation as to why the

344
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:07,800
universe exists.
And so you might say, well, it

345
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:14,000
just does OK.
But then you have to ask why is

346
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,600
it designed for wife?
So the universe has dozens

347
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,600
depending on how you count,
maybe hundreds of constants,

348
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:27,440
just numbers that people in the
equations OK, like the speed of

349
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:33,120
light, the the ratio of the mass
of the proton and the electron,

350
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,960
you know, the strength of the
gravitational force.

351
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,640
Right.
Each of those is precisely set

352
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,480
for life to exist and.
Let me pause you here for one,

353
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,680
for one quick second to to make
sure that we're all clear on

354
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,760
this.
I think what you are saying is,

355
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:58,800
is that these are set and true
across the universe, meaning

356
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,640
just beyond say, our Galaxy of
the Milky Way for example,

357
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,240
right?
Because.

358
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,040
I'm set, yeah.
Because like the speed of sound

359
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:14,600
changes depending upon where you
are at the density of air, but

360
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,200
your point the speed of light
does not.

361
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:24,680
So we're talking about these
rock solid, consistent items

362
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,280
that exist far beyond just a
single Galaxy is what you're

363
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,200
talking about?
Right.

364
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,720
I think the speed of light may
change slightly depending on the

365
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:39,440
the medium, but the gravity, the
ratio, you know, the strength of

366
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,720
the strong nuclear force, the
weak nuclear force that hold the

367
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,400
atoms together, so many more
factors.

368
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:51,680
It's been shown that they are
precise and even atheists will

369
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,840
admit that.
I mean Stephen Hawking who

370
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,000
refused.
He was one of the ones who

371
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,400
proved that the that, and this
is one of his first

372
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,360
accomplishments, that the
strength of gravity is

373
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:08,760
fine-tuned to a point where it's
like picking the right marble

374
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,600
out of a pile of marbles that
goes as far as the nearest *.

375
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,560
So he called that a.
Remarkable fact that that and

376
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,320
other constants and you can look
up his quote and you know more.

377
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,160
I looked into these things and
and that's why I wrote my first

378
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,720
book counting to God.
You know, I looked at creation,

379
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,680
fine tuning, origin of life, the
the technology of life with the

380
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,120
digital code.
You look at our Earth is an

381
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,800
incredibly special planet.
Life wouldn't exist without the

382
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,920
moon.
We have an amazing moon that

383
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,440
there's really no good secular
explanation for why we have such

384
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,080
a a big moon.
Another thing that convinced me

385
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,400
Mick was this is going to sound
super nerdy so forgive me, but

386
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,160
quantum mechanics break it.
Down for us, Doug.

387
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,280
Well, quantum mechanics.
Is the foundation of the

388
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,960
universe what happens at the
bottom level of the universe

389
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,680
when you go inside you all you
fought get to is equations in

390
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,680
quantum mechanics all you can
say is that a particular

391
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,840
particle is met has a
probability of being in this

392
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,000
place at this time you have
incredible mathematical things

393
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,680
but.
So you know why?

394
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,080
Does Why is the foundation of
the universe mathematical

395
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,680
mathematics?
Is ideas.

396
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,160
Whose ideas are they?
But then you get to this

397
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,920
experiment that proves that
things are connected outside of

398
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,800
space and time.
OK, say more.

399
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,080
So.
So which blows away the secular

400
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,440
view that, you know, hey,
there's no room for God, space

401
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,960
and time or everything,
everything.

402
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,760
Right?
So the experiment is called

403
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,880
again.
Forgive me for being nerdy.

404
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,040
Quantum entanglement.
You can look it up.

405
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,600
Yeah.
So the quantum entanglement 82.

406
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,960
Particles you can do it actually
with groups of atoms, but you

407
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,080
make them exactly the same in a
quantum mechanical sets, so they

408
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,120
got all the same properties.
OK, and then you separate.

409
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,800
When you change one, the other
changes instantly.

410
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,960
And when I say.
Instantly, you can't measure any

411
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,000
time difference.
It's at least 1000 times faster

412
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,920
than the speed of light.
And according to Einstein

413
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,520
theory, nothing can go faster
than speed of light.

414
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,880
So the particles are connected
outside of space and time.

415
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:43,440
Yeah.
Wow.

416
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,880
That's that's scientific fact.
I didn't make it up.

417
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,240
Yeah.
And yeah, to me the analogy is

418
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,200
we live in a fishbowl, you know?
Fish in the.

419
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,200
Fishbowl can't.
See how maybe.

420
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,480
Just a little.
Our fishbowl, we can't see out

421
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,400
of it at all.
Our fishbowl is called the

422
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,440
universe.
But there's something out there,

423
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:13,120
something else beyond, and
something outside of time.

424
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:22,840
And so there's a lot of room
forgot out there.

425
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,320
OK, I mean, let's go back to the
creation of the universe.

426
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,760
It's not just that matter was
created.

427
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,760
It's not just that the atoms for
this pencil were created.

428
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,280
At the same time.
That.

429
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,920
The atoms for this pencil.
Were created or other atoms.

430
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,640
Space was created and time was
created and they're all

431
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,120
connected.
By Einstein, right?

432
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,680
We know that.
So how do you create time?

433
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:02,560
I mean, if you start with
absolute nothingness, no space,

434
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,800
no time, no laws of physics, how
did it all happen?

435
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,160
It's just amazing, I think.
I think I get.

436
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,040
Into this stuff, a little bit
too nerdy, a little bit in my

437
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,680
head, and I try not to do that.
You know, I go to church and I

438
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:24,080
pray, but I see no scientific
basis for atheism.

439
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:30,440
I do think faith is a gift, but
I try to help people who think

440
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,160
that.
Being a rational human.

441
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,880
Being requires them to be an
atheist.

442
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,160
It doesn't.
I think it's exactly the

443
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,760
opposite.
Yeah, let's explore.

444
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,880
That a little bit more and I, I
mean, clearly you, you are

445
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,680
alluding to so much of this.
You like, as I looked at quantum

446
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,920
mechanics, as I looked at
cosmology, as I looked at all of

447
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,240
these things, there was no
explanation that either

448
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:05,200
logically, mathematically or, or
anything in the kind of tangible

449
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,040
sense that could explain this to
me.

450
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,600
And you're talking about all of
this with high degrees of

451
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,160
expertise, not just yourself
personally, right.

452
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,800
But like, you know, this isn't
just your, you know, the one O 1

453
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,200
level examination of these
things saying, Oh, I can't come

454
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,760
to a reasonable conclusion.
We're talking about the leading

455
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,840
edge of science over the last,
you know, 100 years, right,

456
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,880
inclusive, of course, you know,
geniuses, legitimate geniuses

457
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,040
like Einstein.
And you're, you're, you're

458
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,000
arriving at this point of there
is no explanation

459
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,480
scientifically, mathematically
inside of the natural world.

460
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:59,680
So it sounds like then you then
make a adult logical conclusion.

461
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,280
There must be something else.
But I don't want to put words in

462
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,360
your mouth because I think that
there is, that there is a jump

463
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,360
of faith.
And what I mean by that I'm, I'm

464
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,320
framing this for the listeners
more than anything.

465
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,960
And then for you really to
respond to is that I think we

466
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:22,920
get to a point where we go, I
can't, I, I can explain XY or Z,

467
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,840
right?
Like we can understand time, for

468
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,160
example, right?
Or we can understand atoms and,

469
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,800
and carbon life forms and those
types of things.

470
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,920
But I can't then make the jump
with an explanation to or where

471
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,160
did all of the inert gases come
from or where did those, you

472
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,480
know, atoms and particles come
from?

473
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,920
So I then have to, in faith,
believe that they were

474
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,880
intelligently designed.
I just want to kind of like

475
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,520
maybe illustrate that a little
bit, that like we can absolutely

476
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,760
explain things to a certain
point and then faith becomes a

477
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,920
decision based off of the
evidence that we have to say we

478
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,320
cannot understand all of this.
It is so far beyond us.

479
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,640
It had to be gone.
But again, that's I'm, I'm, I'm

480
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,600
having some of my own biases, at
least in terms of this

481
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,520
conversation playthrough.
So, you know, let's let's hear

482
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,520
it from you, who's much more
academic and scientific than I.

483
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:29,400
Well, there has to be a
designer, you know, there has to

484
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,560
be.
When you start realizing.

485
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,520
The universe was created and
we've known that for almost 100

486
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:42,240
years now and we've known all
the evidence keeps mounting that

487
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:48,600
the universe is designed and
then the design in life is so

488
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:55,720
much greater even and, and so
many some such technology we all

489
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:02,360
have in our bodies the
complexity of the of human

490
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,960
beings, the growth.
And you and I were talking about

491
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,560
this, you were giving an example
of before we started this of,

492
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,560
you know, we start each human
being starts from a single cell.

493
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,600
Yeah, OK.
And then through the magnificent

494
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,880
design and architecture far
beyond our comprehension, it

495
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:31,719
grows into 30 trillion cells of
all different types, builds all

496
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,280
the systems in our body, 4
million switches to turn it on

497
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,360
and off.
No explanation outside of got a

498
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,800
designer if you will, why any of
this exists.

499
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,360
So I mean, I think.
That that gets you to God if

500
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,239
you're going to be
intellectually honest.

501
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,680
You know you've.
Got to set, say, I think that

502
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,280
human beings were designed.
Yeah, well, I think there's

503
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,360
value.
To frankly, in the nerdiness

504
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:10,080
meaning in the details of things
because as we were talking

505
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:16,840
before, you know, if it is it is
easy to make certain jumps in

506
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:22,040
either understanding or belief
at a one O 1 level of

507
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,200
understanding.
You know, it's another thing to

508
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,120
get all the way to the quantum
mechanical level of depth to

509
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,520
realize that we can't even
pinpoint where this thing

510
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,200
actually is.
We have to give it a

511
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,440
probability.
And then scientifically, we can

512
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:44,160
prove that these things are not
connected by, by time and space,

513
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,520
you know, and when we really
begin to look at that and see

514
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:53,960
how far beyond the level of
complexity that someone could

515
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,320
have perhaps developed it.
I can't even use the word

516
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,240
because we can't really use the
word create, right?

517
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,400
Because we, we, we don't create
anything from nothing.

518
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,680
Everything that is developed,
every pharmaceutical, for

519
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,680
example, which has high degrees
of complexity in their chemical

520
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,720
structure.
So I'll create it from existing

521
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:18,360
things in the universe.
You know what I mean?

522
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,520
It's not fabricated out of
nothing.

523
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,720
And you know, there's, there's a
lot to be said for that.

524
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:30,880
Where did it all start?
You know, and I think, you know,

525
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,800
this is the one of the reasons
why it is called when you look,

526
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:40,880
because folks have to decide for
themselves whether or not they

527
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,640
have enough evidence to conclude
it was God.

528
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,360
You know, and as far as I'm
concerned, intellectually, faith

529
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,280
is a decision.
I'm just going to add.

530
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,520
I agree that to me.
It's not hard to decide.

531
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:03,160
There's enough evidence the hard
decision on an individual level

532
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,960
is whether you're going to look
at it or not.

533
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,880
You know, and only.
People don't look at it until

534
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:13,440
they.
Have a problem in their.

535
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:20,400
Lives and if your life's going
good, hey, things are good, I'm

536
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,760
doing great.
Whatever you know, something

537
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,360
happens.
Any of 100.

538
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:34,760
Things and and then they start
to wonder, you know, what's

539
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,520
what's going on.
And then that helps them look, I

540
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:43,640
think, you know, I think
problems are a can be a very

541
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,040
humbling experience.
That is for sure.

542
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,760
Well, Doug, let's.
Let's land the plane here with

543
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,480
exploring questions that I have
a pretty good sense, at least

544
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,960
for the first one, how you're
going to respond, but that that

545
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,680
question is ultimately
coincidence or God.

546
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,280
And let's actually take it not
necessarily through the lens of

547
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,480
looking at creation or
intelligent design.

548
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,280
Let's instead look at it more
about the encounter or the the

549
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,560
moment that experience that you
had in church.

550
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,120
And where you decided?
I need to look at this.

551
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,640
You felt there was this push or
this prompt.

552
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:28,760
I felt something.
Coincidence or?

553
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:34,800
God, yeah, no, I think.
That was definitely God, God

554
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:42,600
giving me a little nudge.
You know, IA lot of people think

555
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,680
that.
These experiences.

556
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,200
Of God are made-up.
OK, that people are.

557
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,520
Deluding themselves, but when
you really get people.

558
00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:00,800
To open up and they feel safe
to.

559
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,240
Do it.
The stories will tell.

560
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,840
People will tell you about
experiences with God.

561
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,920
I have a friend who became a
priest and he said that when he

562
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,680
committed to the priesthood, he
was taken to another place.

563
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:20,560
So I had a little glimpse, a
little sense, but it kind of

564
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,440
relates to your coincidence
point, right?

565
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,320
I mean so.
Many people have.

566
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,600
This A lot of people, even a lot
of secular people, have these

567
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,160
experiences.
And they decide.

568
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,640
I'm just going to.
I can't explain it.

569
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,120
Whatever, forget about it.
Let's get on.

570
00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:49,440
I really think that I'm not the
only one to have that, but it

571
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,240
was something given to me by
God.

572
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:58,760
Yeah, I'm right.
On Well Doug, tell us how life

573
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,560
has changed as a result of all
of this?

574
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,800
Meaning, how is your life
changed as a result of all of

575
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,560
this?
I think I'm calmer, You know,

576
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,120
I'm much I'm.
Very.

577
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,400
I I'm still incredibly.
Nerdy so that hasn't changed as

578
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,760
you as you I'm making very clear
on this call but I think I'm I

579
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,160
appreciate things more and I'm
particularly grateful for

580
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,840
everything God's done in my life
and gratitude is the mother of

581
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,520
all virtues when.
You realize that?

582
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,680
We live in a that God designed
the universe for us, that we're

583
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,360
designed and that interacts with
us personally.

584
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:52,360
How can you help but?
Feel grateful and incredibly

585
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:59,120
humbled and I don't care how
much you know how important you

586
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,800
are or or any of the usual
status symbols, you got to be

587
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,840
incredibly humble and I think
that humility and the gratitude

588
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:17,520
that my search has landed me
into have profoundly increased

589
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,960
my life.
Yeah, Praise God.

590
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,680
Praise God.
Doug, what about the

591
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,680
resurrection?
Where does that fit in?

592
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,360
Where's Jesus in all of this?
Because we've got a great

593
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,200
conversation about God, the
compelling.

594
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:40,720
Thing about Christianity to me
is that it's the only logical

595
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,800
explanation for existence.
I've heard people say well I

596
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,440
don't need God, I'm a good
person.

597
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:52,600
Well, we're all messed up,
that's for sure, and only Jesus

598
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,320
can save us.
Amen.

599
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,000
Amen.
Well, Doug, you've got the new

600
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,600
book out.
Tell us a little bit about that,

601
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:08,200
in particular the why you talked
about this sort of at the

602
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,720
outside of our conversation, but
give us a little more insight

603
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:12,560
into the book.
Sure.

604
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,160
Can I find out more?
About it?

605
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,480
Absolutely.
All right, so it's.

606
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:22,960
Called the God Proofs and it's a
graphic novel, meaning kind of a

607
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,720
cartoon book.
It's a simpler version of

608
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:33,840
counting to God by far, although
so I have had one person gave

609
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,000
this to I think his 12 year old
granddaughter and she said it's

610
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,760
below her level.
I have other friends who have

611
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,960
doctorates who say it's above
their level.

612
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:48,560
You go figure.
But it's, it gets into this

613
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,600
stuff and kind of a humorous
way.

614
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,240
I think it's really resonating
with a lot of young people.

615
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:59,600
It's published by the by the
Discovery Institute, which is

616
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:05,120
the world's number one institute
for intelligent design based in

617
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,560
Seattle, WA and all the revenues
go to them.

618
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:17,560
I'm not trying to to hawk this
for my own financial benefit

619
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,200
here.
It's but I think.

620
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,560
It's a great book for.
For kids, but it's also a good

621
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,480
book for adults because I know a
lot of people who in my age,

622
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,200
you, you know, their
grandparents or their grandkids

623
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,080
or their kids don't believe in
God.

624
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,080
They think it's nonsense and
they think they can explain

625
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,960
things without God.
Well, the God proves, proves

626
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:51,280
through mathematics, through
common sense, and through logic

627
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,080
that God exists.
Awesome.

628
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:02,400
Well, we'll link to the Amazon
spot for those.

629
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,520
Is there any other place that
you would want folks to check

630
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,320
out your work or your other
books?

631
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,000
I have a website.
Counting to god.com.

632
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,760
I occasionally post blogs there
and you can find out more

633
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,360
information there.
Doug.

634
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,320
A real pleasure man Thank you a
bunch for exploring a lot of

635
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,440
these technicalities, our
technical issues and and and

636
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,440
items inside of the natural
world and then also blending

637
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,320
into that your own personal
story really really appreciate

638
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,400
the transparency in all of this
and you're illuminating a lot of

639
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,240
really neat stuff so thank you
I'm.

640
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,160
Delighted to be here.
Thank you.

641
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,520
Was it coincidence?
Or God.

642
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,760
You decide for yourself, but I
believe you just heard a story

643
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,760
for His glory.
When You Look is powered by

644
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,280
stories just like this and yours
could be next.

645
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,880
Go to whenyoulook.com/be a guest
or use the link in the

646
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,880
description below.
Drop us a comment and share this

647
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,960
episode with somebody that needs
it.

648
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,720
Until next time, thanks a bunch
for listening and watching, and

649
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:16,560
God bless.